Friday, December 12, 2008

Rick Warren and what to do with the bad guys

Rick Warren, pastor of the noted and increasingly notorious Saddleback Church, has a new book on the market called The Purpose of Christmas.

On December 3, Warren appeared on "Hannity & Colmes" to promote the book and exercise his well-honed theological expertise for the glory of god and all those who decided they had nothing better to do than listen to three bozos discuss the reason for the season.

Hannity, being a "good" Christian, drooled all over Warren with sappy comments like "...this is a great book."

To which Warren responded brightly, "Thank you."

It went on like that for awhile and then Warren told Hannity "...we've got to remember why Jesus came to earth."

Hannity responded, "Well, it was for the salvation of man's soul and reconciliation to God."

[There's that "soul" business again. Again, caught off guard, I checked the bottom of my shoes but my soles were just fine. Ah, yes. Different kind of "soul." Have you ever seen one? Do you got soul? Is the body separate from the soul? Where doth the soul go when the body dies? So many questions, so little time.]

Warren, Hannity and Colmes weren't having any of that theological talk, though. So it was back to Christmas and how busy everyone was and Hannity suggested "we don't really stand back and reflect a lot. And this book makes you reflect and think of the real purpose and meaning of life and things."

I like that "things." What "things"?

"Christmas is God's gift to you," Warren intoned. "God has given us a gift in Jesus Christ. And people don't understand: it's for our benefit. One of the things that says, 'For unto you is born this day a savior.' They say, 'Well, I don't need a savior.'"

Pfft! says Warren. God wouldn't have sent Jesus if we didn't need a savior - "because he wouldn't have wasted his time."


So it went. Blah, blah, blah.

Colmes entered the fray by announcing he was Jewish and suggested that maybe everyone didn't need to "go that route" - the Jesus route.

Aw, but "Jesus Christ came for everybody," said the pastor.

Colmes wondered if someone who didn't accept Jesus would get to heaven.

Here's where Warren took the easy way out. "I'm not an authority on that, but I believe Jesus is. And everybody's betting their life on something Jesus said, 'I am the way.' I'm betting that he's not a liar. I'm betting that he told the truth."

Ah so. Warren says he's not an authority but immediately proceeds to pontificate that if Jesus said he was the ONLY WAY it must be true. Sheesh!

It should be noted that this wee saying of Jesus is found only in the Gospel of John which was written almost a hundred years after the legendary Jesus left the scene by someone who never met Jesus, and yet was able somehow to put long theological dialogues into Jesus' mouth, none of which were ever mentioned by the writers of the Synoptic Gospels! In fact, 90% of the Gospel of John does not appear in the Synoptics!


They bantered a bit more and Warren continued to hold forth about issues on which he is not an authority.

Then the shit hit the fan, so to speak. Hannity said that everyone has sinned and that "there's always going to be human evil," and asked how do you get rid of it. "Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust, wants to wipe Israel off the map, is seeking nuclear weapons."

And then, "I think we need to take him out."

Warren said, "Yes." And the reason, claims this biblical pundit, is that "the Bible says that evil cannot be negotiated with. It has to be stopped. ..."

Hannity asks if that should be done by force.

Warren says, "Well, if necessary. In fact, that is the legitimate role of government. The Bible says that God put government on earth to punish evildoers. Not good-doers. Evildoers."


Oh damn! It appears that Rick Warren is just another religious hack of the christianist stripe, perched on the far right of the fundy wingnuts! The only difference between him and say John Hagee, is that he tries to do a few good works, which are not necessary for salvation, you understand, but make him look better to the Trinitarian god(s) in paradise..

The Bible, you see, says lot of things, but it doesn't say one can't negotiate with evil. In fact, many biblical stories relate quite clearly how the "chosen" folks, God's people, negotiated with evildoers.

So what the hell is Warren talking about? What he has done is wrap his religious beliefs into a political ideology.


Matt Duss at the Wonk Room at Think Progress, figured Warren was basing this nonsense on Romans 13. So he contacted Warren's office and asked exactly where the Bible says that "God puts government on earth to punish evildoers." They told him they'd have to get back to him on that.

Romans 13 says nothing close to what Warren claimed. Paul is telling the faithful they should "submit to governing authorities," because government is from God for the well-being of all. Not many Christians believe that, but then there's a lot in the New Testament they don't believe.

As Duss says, "This [Romans 13] has nothing to do with invading foreign countries and killing their leaders...

"In any case, if this were a conversation between an Iranian TV host and an ayatollah in which they discussed scriptural justifications for 'taking out' high ranking members of the U.S. government, you'd probably see Sean Hannity running the clip on his show -- while slowly shaking his head in pious disapproval -- as evidence of what crazy extremists those Iranians are. As it is, they'll probably be running this on Iranian TV as evidence of what crazy extremists those Americans are."


Duss reports that Warren's office did call back [surprise, surprise!] to confirm Warren was referencing Romans 13. He suggested to Warren's minions that Romans 13 does not say what Warren said it says. Again they said they'd check and get back to him.


I think I'd not buy Warren's Christmas book. If this interview is any indication, it will be filled with pious platitudes and scriptural quotes and sentimental seasonal stuff, none of which will be spiritually or otherwise fulfilling.

And what is the difference between an Iranian ayatollah and a Rick Warren?


4 comments:

KELSO'S NUTS said...

Very, very fine summation of the show and Rick Warren's hokum. If Rick Warren were not also an advisor to and close friend of President Obama I'd laugh instead of worrying. Then again, I live in Panama, so I can laugh. Then again, Venezuela is only 200 miles away, so I worry. Then again, Venezuela provides 1/2 of the US's heating oil and jet fuel and is allied with the Russian Republic which provides about 10% of all the US's energy products and have a PM who doesn't give a wooden kopek that Obama "made history," so when all he reckoning is done, I'm laughing at Rick Warren because he's a tool!

Lowell said...

Jesus Kelso! I didn't know Warren was "a close friend" of Obama. Are you sure. The christianist right has taken Warren to task for having Obama in his church, but it seems of late Warren is falling back into the same old pattern cut out by Falwell and Robertson - as evidenced by this interview.

Great comment. I thought living in Florida was conducive to paranoia, you know, what with the massive military power, Cuba, just 90 miles off our shores!

One other thing, Warren may be a tool, or a fool, or both. I just wish these christianist wingnuts would stay the hell out of our government!

Have a great day!

Jacob

KELSO'S NUTS said...

JACOB: I am as sure as I could possibly be about the close relationship between Obama and Warren. PLEASE don't take my word for it, though. Research it for yourself.

Living in Panama which is a majority Catholic country but has full separation of church and state and has freedom of and from religion enshrined into law, I don't get to worked up about religion. In fact, organized religion here is much mellower than in the US. The Catholic Church here doesn't express an opinion about homosexuality or birth control or abortion or anything political. They want worshippers who ENJOY being there. It's basically a Jesuit liturgy about Jesus being "el dios de amor" ("the price of peace"). I'm Jewish by ethnicity but I don't bother going to shul here because they don't have any Humanist shuls. I like going to shabbos dinners though because there's no religion just a great meal with a mix of a lot of people of different religions and no religion.

When I deal with Americans, I self-identify as ATHEIST because religion is so very much a part of poltical life in the US and with such bad outcomes.

Anonymous said...

I think if commentators on news programs are going to quote the bible as part of their news, they should be asked to open the Bible and show the passage they are quoting.
These idiots are not experts on religion and frequently cannot answer the questions relative to their quotes. Their personal beliefs are not backed up with contemporary evidence as there are no written records of Jesus, his teachings, or even contemporary witnesses. Belief is simply belief. It is not evidence. One is entitled to believe in devils, witches, angels, leprechauns, gnomes, evil spirits, etc., as long as they do not enforce their beliefs on others. Let us put religion back into the churches where it belongs and leave news, government, banking, the economy, war and peace, etc where it belongs. So far we have no evidence that prayer has prevented any of the human tragedies we read about daily. Most religions do pray and sometimes the prayers are the opposite of their enemies. Does the winner have more pull with God, or re there many gods or what is the answer?
Can we stop trying to convince each other that we are right and they are wrong?
This is not the proper place for such a contest.
Bob Poris

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